hrvatski naš svagdašnji

Mjesto za rasprave o svemu onom što drugdje nije našlo mjesta.

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Ire
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hrvatski naš svagdašnji

Unread post by Ire »

na jednom jezi?nom forumu jedan me amer priupitao koja je, pobogu, razlika izme?u hrvatskog, srpskog i bosanskog jezika .. :x kak da ja njemu velim da je to tema maltene za doktorsku disertaciju?

evo i potpitanja ..
From wikipedia I gather that Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian are all essentially the same language. Bosnian and Serbian use both Cyrillic and Latin alphabets, while Croatian only uses the Latin alphabet. I have numerous questions:

1 .Are Bosnian and Serbian spelled the same way when written with the Cyrillic alphabet?

2. Is same orthography used for Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian when written with the Latin alphabet?

3. Which is more prevalent in Bosnia and Serbia, the Cyrillic or Latin orthographies?

4. Do all Bosnians and Serbians know both orthographies?

5. Can Croatians read the Bosnian and Serbian when written in Cyrillic?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am very curious,
-Jonathan.
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Re: hrvatski na[?] svagda[?]nji

Unread post by ban »

ire wrote:na jednom jezi?nom forumu jedan me amer priupitao koja je, pobogu, razlika izme?u hrvatskog, srpskog i bosanskog jezika ..
Reci mu da barem, za razliku od ameri?kog, postoje.
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Izitpajn
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Unread post by Izitpajn »

Okej, evo moje verzije pa je mozes a)proslijediti tipu, b)dati mi/nam njegov mail pa da se dopisujemo i c) (osobno preferiram) dati mu adresu ovog topica na ovom forumu pa neka se ukljuci u raspravu s potpitanjima.

The question if two or more languages are identical is generally a tricky one. I know for sure that some linguists don't even want to go into that matter because there are so many conflicting interests - political, cultural, probably even financial - that can distort and blur the purely scientific arguments. This especially works for the issue of Southern Slavic language(s). Croats and Bosnians have a political interest to claim their languages are different while the Serbs have a political interest to claim they're not. So, basically, since linguists are just people, some of them will decide to evade the topic, some will embrace a particular policy, while some will try to be neutral and discuss the problem objectively. The problem is distinguishing between all of them (of course, except the first, and it's a fact that even the third gruoup can't agrre among themselves).

One of the main issues is what makes a language different from others. If you take the principle of "being able to understand each other", the we have a serious problem; Croats, Serbs, Bosnians and Montenegrians can officially understand each other if they all speak ther "proper languages"; I myself can also understand most of Slovenian (ex-YU compatriots with an officially reckognised "different language") and some Russian. However, my girlfreind gets in serious trouble wher trying to talk to a Slovenian and a friend of mine who grew up in the same town as me has the same problem with the Russian. After some thought, I realised why this was so: when I was a kid, we watched a lot of Slovenian TV and I simply "picked up" some of the vocabulary and synthax which made it easier for me to later understand Slovenian. As for the Russian language, when I was a kid I watched TV a lot and there were a lot of Russian films on. My friend, however, was an "outside" type of kid: he played football and was hanging around a lot so he didn't watch those films.

There is also the fact that a lot of peasents from villages in Northern Croatia (that's what I'm sure about, there are probably other examples) that are 10 km apart - who supposedly share the same dialect - can't understand each other. But nobody in their right mind would claim that they speak different languages. Also, I met some guys from Serbia when I was in Bulgaria, another Slavic country. I remember that I could understand less than 30% of what the locals were saying, but these guys were communicating, well, not exactly fluently, but they were communicating, although they never actually *studied* Bulgarian. However, geographically, Serbia is placed exactly between Croatia and Bulgaria, so go figure.

As for 99% mutual understandability of Croatian and Serbian, I believe it's a consequence of around 150 years of planned merging of the languages and 70 years of living together in the same state. We had the same legal system, shared TV shows, films, series, news, books, sometimes newspapers, basically everything. So, eventually, one gets to understand the language pretty perfectly. Well, almost perfectly. I can recall some funny stories people used to tell from the time they were in the military, and I can witness that I myself once took a Serbian mathematical book thinking "hey, it's Serbian, what's there *not* to understand?" After I opened it, I gazed at the pages for about fifteen minutes and realised it'd save me a lot of trouble if I tried some other language instead. English, for example.

There is also the principle of historical development, but that one is even more feeble. Norwegean language was born after Norway gained independance from Sweden, when the Norwegeans deliberately took one of their dialects most different from Swedish and made it their official language. Today nobody argues that Norwegean is different from Sweden. Well, maybe someone would if they could understand any of them?

Anyway, as for historical development, it is a fact that the language was just one of many fronts of nationalist/separatist movements that used the difference in dialects to prove one had the right to have one's own nation, while the unitarian movements used the similarities to prove that "they're all one happy nation". So I think it would be better if we don't go into that?

Now, all these examples don't prove a thing. What could be used in some kind of a scientific proof are the following facts:

- Serbian and Croatian are 90% identical in vocabulary (that's just my estimate, it could be anywhere between 66 and 99%)
- there ARE grammar differences; minor, but official and solid
- there are a few "spelling" differences (I've put quotes because "spelling" in our language(s) isn't quite the same thing as spelling in English)

But what that proof would prove is beyond my grasp. And, as it seems, beyond grasp of most of "official" linguists. Simply, there are arguments to claim both ways: that Croatian and Serbian are identical and that they are separate languages.

This is why I had to make my own theory:

A language is a living thing. It evolves, splits into two, sometimes dies. All rules regarding it are fluid and depend on many things. That is why all language rules are a convention, a deal among people who use it about what they will use and how. The next question is, who gets to take part in this deal, and who gets to be left out. Well, the answer is quite obvious: those who use it have the right to decide on the convention, and those who don't, don't. And here is a quite predictable conclusion: if the Croats are the ones who are the sole users of what some Serbs call "the Latinic/Western/whatever variant of Serbian language", then the Croats are the only ones who have the right to take part in the deal regarding the convention of their language. The convention doesn't regard only the ways of usage, but also the name of the language. And if the Croats say it's a separate language, well, what does anyone have to argue about that? Especially since the Croatian and Serbian are *not* identical. They are similar, but then, it all depends where you put the treshold of identity. So, my amateur argument is: if argument can be made for both sides, and it can, then let the users decide on the convention for themselves.

There is another amateur argument in favour of Croatian and Serbian being separate languages. American and British English have officially separated 200 years ago and have been developing separately since, but today they are more similar than Croatian and Serbian that had been planningly merged for the last 150 years. Why would they remain so different if they hadn't been even more different in the beginning?

Of course, as I sad in the beginning, I'm not an expert. But I'm a physicist and physicists like to think that when you know the fundamental facts of the Universe, it only a matter of time until you deduce everything else :)

As for Bosnian, most of the things I said work for it, too. Except the fact that I think Bosnian was never officially reckognised as a language in Yugoslavia. The first time they started talking about it was after they gained independance.

And now for your questions (although, as you may have guessed by now, I believe your questions are not the right ones, or at least there is not enough of them):

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. During Yugoslavia Bosnia was 50-50 (I think, but I should check that), but today there is no more Cyrillic there, except in the exclusively Serbian parts (which is 49%).

4. Serbians do; I'm not sure for Bosnians.

5. If they learned it. Cyrillic was never a part of Croatian heritage; it is exclusively Serbian/Bulgarian/Ukrainian/Russian alphabet (I'm not sure about the Belarus). In Yugoslavia it was obligatory for everyone to know both (hence the term half- or semi-literate). But as soon as Croatia separated, it was no longer the case.
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Ire
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Unread post by Ire »

ok, tenks izitpajn :iconbiggrin: proslijedit ?u mu

btw, frajer nije pitao da provocira il neš, samo ga zanima. ko što rekoh, to je jezi?ni/prevoditeljski forum, pa se zanimaju za svakakve jezike
napisao je da je tražio podatke na internetu, pa su ga valjda rezultati zbunili :;
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Izitpajn
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Unread post by Izitpajn »

ire wrote:,btw, frajer nije pitao da provocira il neš, samo ga zanima.
To sam skužio ;)
ko što rekoh, to je jezi?ni/prevoditeljski forum
Hm, ajd onda, kad si ve? tamo, i mene nešto zanima, pa ajd pitaj nekoga. Konkretno, jel postoji kakav "institut za njema?ki jezik"? Još konkretnije, tko odlu?uje što je "službeni njema?ki" i kakvog utjecaja na to imaju Austrijanci i Švicarci.
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Unread post by Hrvoje Prcic »

ire wrote:ok, tenks izitpajn :iconbiggrin: proslijedit ?u mu

btw, frajer nije pitao da provocira il ne[?], samo ga zanima. ko [?]to rekoh, to je jezi?ni/prevoditeljski forum, pa se zanimaju za svakakve jezike
napisao je da je traĹžio podatke na internetu, pa su ga valjda rezultati zbunili :;
Moram dodati jo[?] ne[?]to.
Wikipedia ni u kom slu?aju nije vjerodostojni izvor podataka. Ustrojena je kao otvorena baza podataka u kojoj svatko moĹže napisati [?]to ho?e i to treba obja[?]njavati uvijek iznova.

Neke Izitpajnove tvrdnje treba ispraviti. Osobno u jezi?na pitanja, poglavito kad se strancima obja[?]njavaju razlike i sli?nosti jezika u regiji, ne bih trpao politi?ka prepucavanja i pozadine (iako one mogu igrati ulogu u jezikoslovnim porivima, ali u struci nikako). Izi pomalo mije[?]a lingvistiku i dijalektologiju, [?]to nedovoljno upu?enog stranca dodatno moĹže zbuniti. Nikako se ne bih sloĹžio da je 90 posto rje?nika u srpskom i hrvatskom isto. Gramati?ke razlike ni u kom slu?aju nisu minorne, [?]tovi[?]e izrazite su. I napokon, ?irilica jest dio hrvatskog jezi?nog naslije?a, sjetimo se samo bosan?ice, i stra[?]na je jezikoslovna gre[?]ka re?i da nije.
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Unread post by BerislavLopac »

Wikipedia = Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Izitpajn
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Unread post by Izitpajn »

Hrvoje Pr?i? wrote:Moram dodati još nešto.
Wikipedia ni u kom slu?aju nije vjerodostojni izvor podataka. Ustrojena je kao otvorena baza podataka u kojoj svatko može napisati što ho?e i to treba objašnjavati uvijek iznova.
Netko mi je rekao da na Wikipediji ?as stoji da je u jasenovcu ubijeno 70.000, ?as da je ubijeno 700.000...
Osobno u jezi?na pitanja, poglavito kad se strancima objašnjavaju razlike i sli?nosti jezika u regiji, ne bih trpao politi?ka prepucavanja i pozadine (iako one mogu igrati ulogu u jezikoslovnim porivima, ali u struci nikako).
Stvar je u tome da politika objašnjava motivaciju nekih da tvrde jedno ili drugo, a to ni u kom slu?aju nije za zanemariti. Što se ti?e zbunjivanja, pa, stvar je u tome da objasniš tako da ne zbuniš ?ovjeka.
Nikako se ne bih složio da je 90 posto rje?nika u srpskom i hrvatskom isto.
Pa rekao sam da je to moja osobna procjena i da je pravi rezultat tko zna gdje. Naravno, ovisi što trpaš u razlike, samo potpuno razli?ite rije?i, ili i one sli?ne te one s istim korijenom, a razli?ite u jednom slovu što se možda u izgovoru i gubi.
Gramati?ke razlike ni u kom slu?aju nisu minorne, štoviše izrazite su.
Sve za što znam su "ije-je-e", "ho?u da idem" i "gleda?u" (naravno, govorimo o književnom jeziku, ne?). Bez sarkazma, zbilja me zanima koje još razlike postoje.
I napokon, ?irilica jest dio hrvatskog jezi?nog naslije?a, sjetimo se samo bosan?ice, i strašna je jezikoslovna greška re?i da nije.
Okej.[/i]
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Unread post by Hrvoje Prcic »

Izitpajn wrote:Netko mi je rekao da na Wikipediji ?as stoji da je u jasenovcu ubijeno 70.000, ?as da je ubijeno 700.000....
Upravo tako - Hrvat napi[?]e 70.000, pa Srbin prebri[?]e i napi[?]e 700.000 i tako ukrug. Wikipedia je vrlo opasna kao izvor podataka i ne treba se njome sluĹžiti, odnosno sve na?eno u njoj valja provjeriti drugdje (i to dva puta)

Stvar je u tome da politika obja[?]njava motivaciju nekih da tvrde jedno ili drugo, a to ni u kom slu?aju nije za zanemariti. Ĺ to se ti?e zbunjivanja, pa, stvar je u tome da objasni[?] tako da ne zbuni[?] ?ovjeka..
A [?]to ?e pomisliti stranac kad mu po?ne[?] obja[?]njavati da zbog politike jedni o jeziku tvrde jedno, a drugi drugo? Pomislit ?e da smo budale koji ne rabe znanost nego neke druge metode - pomislit ?e da smo nesposobni postaviti i definirati jezi?ni standard - pomislit ?e da su hrvatski i srpski ipak jedan jezik (ne znam za[?]to, ali uvijek to pomisle, a ne da je rije? o dva jezika koje lo[?]a politika Ĺželi postovijetiti), ali se zbog politike umjetno podvajaju. MoĹžda je razlog u 50 godina srpskohrvatskog jedinstva. Ergo, zalaĹžem se da se strancu prvo dobro objasni kako je rije? o dva jezika, a potom, nakon [?]to sve ras?istimo i sprijateljimo se, objasnimo i politi?ke igre oko jezika.

Gramati?ke razlike ni u kom slu?aju nisu minorne, [?]tovi[?]e izrazite su. - Sve za [?]to znam su "ije-je-e", "ho?u da idem" i "gleda?u" (naravno, govorimo o knjiĹževnom jeziku, ne?). Bez sarkazma, zbilja me zanima koje jo[?] razlike postoje.
Tvorba rije?i, tvorba re?enice, naglasci, transkripcija i transliteracija, uporaba infinitiva...
I napokon, ?irilica jest dio hrvatskog jezi?nog naslije?a, sjetimo se samo bosan?ice, i stra[?]na je jezikoslovna gre[?]ka re?i da nije. -
Okej.
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Izitpajn
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Unread post by Izitpajn »

Hrvoje Pr?i? wrote:A što ?e pomisliti stranac kad mu po?neš objašnjavati da zbog politike jedni o jeziku tvrde jedno, a drugi drugo? Pomislit ?e da smo budale koji ne rabe znanost nego neke druge metode - pomislit ?e da smo nesposobni postaviti i definirati jezi?ni standard
Što, naravno, uop?e nije istina... :x
pomislit ?e da su hrvatski i srpski ipak jedan jezik (ne znam zašto, ali uvijek to pomisle,
Sad dolazimo do onoga kome što i zašto objašnjavamo. Mislim, to da je rije? o jednom jeziku logi?ki ne proizlazi iz gore navedenog. Ako netko to tako želi shva?ati, neka mu.
Ergo, zalažem se da se strancu prvo dobro objasni kako je rije? o dva jezika, a potom, nakon što sve ras?istimo i sprijateljimo se, objasnimo i politi?ke igre oko jezika.
Hm, dakle, da mu se najprije objasni teorija, a potom ?injenice? A ako ?injenice ne odgovaraju teoriji, tim gore po ?injenice...
Tvorba rije?i, tvorba re?enice, naglasci, transkripcija i transliteracija, uporaba infinitiva...
Okej, a može poneki primjer?
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Unread post by Miles »

Ja se uglavnom slažem za Izitpajnom. Mislim da je najve?a razlika u jezicima upravo "politi?ka". I kao dokaz navodim stanje u BiH: imamo 3 jezika Hrvatski, Bosanski i Srpski pa Srbi pri?aju ekavicom iako prije rata nisu(osim možda onih uz granicu sa Srbijom), Hrvati (koliko sam ja vidio) pri?aju hrvatskom varijantom bivšeg Srpskohrvatskog-Hrvatskosrpskog a Bosanski je nekakva mješavina svega toga uz dodatak arhaizama i turcizama.
Samo da se ogradim, ja nisam lingvisti?ar. Jezik mi nije struka pa su ovi zaklju?ci doneseni samo na osnovu što sam vidio i ?uo zadnjih godina.
Dakle, govorimo na 3 jezika al se savršeno razumijemo.
S druge strane, ja jednog Zagorca gotovo ništa ne razumijem a najbolji primjer toga je onaj zagorac iz Ve?ernje škole što bude petkom na hrtu.
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Unread post by BerislavLopac »

Miles wrote:S druge strane, ja jednog Zagorca gotovo ništa ne razumijem a najbolji primjer toga je onaj zagorac iz Ve?ernje škole što bude petkom na hrtu.
Ah, njega ni drugi Zagorci ne razmeju. :iconbiggrin:

Ali trebas ti cuti hrvatski koji pricaju stare babe sa Suska...
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Unread post by Dagon »

Miles wrote:S druge strane, ja jednog Zagorca gotovo ni[?]ta ne razumijem a najbolji primjer toga je onaj zagorac iz Ve?ernje [?]kole [?]to bude petkom na hrtu.
Pazi, u Istre se pri?a dialekt koji sam savr[?]eno svladala, ali Labinjoni svejdno ne kapim. Leon, nisam mislila na tebe, ti sa mnom uvjek pri?a[?] hrvatski.

D.
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Unread post by Zeljko »

najmrĹži su mi oni koji kaĹžu da nema razlika izme?u 3 jezika i da svi trebamo pri?ati jednim jezikom

jeste... nema razlika ... moĹžda 5% pa stoga ajmo svi pri?ati hrvatski :headbang: :ocasion: :angel: :uzdravlje:

ps. srbi u bih govore ijekavskim... mada sluĹžbeno mogu i ekavski koristiti
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